[Erp5-dev] person and vat code

[Bartek Gorny]

Hello,

I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".

I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.

As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it? If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?

Bartek

[Vera Kurpas]

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

[Jean-Paul Smets]

Hi,

The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.

A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.

In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.

In the end, there are 2 different documents:
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5

So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
a case in which:
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier

If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.

About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
issues nowadays in ERP5:
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.

Regards,

JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

I considered this approach, but saw two major drawbacks:

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation

- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number

As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.

Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.

Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Sorry, I repeated the same mistake - I mean, I think you meant "one
Organisation which
represents his/her business" here, right?

B.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
"Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"

[Jean-Paul Smets]

Hi,

Please read again my reply.
- a Person has a tax code (which is very different from a vat_code)
- a Person can not have a vat_code (unless you give me an example of
VAT code for a physical person which is not doing any business besides
being a consumer)
- the only way to represent a "Person acting as a Business" is to
use an Organisation. Lawyers, doctors, etc. must create in ERP5 an
Organisation to represent their Law office, medical office, etc. wich
are different from their Person.
- tax_code is missing in ERP5 property sheets (for both Organisation
and Person)

The only remaining issue for now is how to call "tax_code" with an
appropriate name. Candidates are:
- fiscal_code (I prefer this one)
- tax_code

The definition of "fiscal_code" is "a unique identifier provided by the
tax administration for any individual or organisation subject to revenue
tax". This means a unique identifier provided by the ministry of finance
in most countries.

The definition of "vat_code" is "a unique identifier provided by the tax
administration for any organisation subject to value added tax".

The definition of "registration_code" is "a unique identifier provided
by the incorporation authority to any organisation doing business".

The definition of "social_code" is "a unique identifier provided by the
social wellfare authority to entities which are contributing to or
benefitting from the social wellfare system".

In most countries, the numbers are different. In some clever countries,
they are unique.

In the case of Poland, there is at least:
- fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
- social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
- vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only

Regards,

JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
- fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
- social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
- vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only

No. In Poland, there are only TWO codes:

- social_code (PESEL) - for Person
- "the other code" (NIP) - for Person and Organisation

The point you are still missing is that:

fiscal_code === vat_code

The official definition of a NIP is something like:

"A unique identifier provided by the tax administration for any
individual or organisation who is subject to any tax or social
security payments to Polish authorities".

(for Polish speakers: "Numer NIP to numer identyfikuj?cy podmioty
b?d?ce na terenie Polski podatnikami, p?atnikami podatk?w oraz
p?atnikami sk?adek ZUS.")

So, when I started a vat-paying business (established an Organisation,
if you prefer it that way), I used the same fiscal code as when I was
a consumer. There is no separate vat code. The EC vat number is the
same number prefixed by a country code.

Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
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Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
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ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Jean-Paul Smets]

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
- fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
- social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
- vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only

- social_code (PESEL) - for Person
- "the other code" (NIP) - for Person and Organisation
fiscal_code === vat_code
"A unique identifier provided by the tax administration for any
individual or organisation who is subject to any tax or social
security payments to Polish authorities".
(for Polish speakers: "Numer NIP to numer identyfikuj?cy podmioty
b?d?ce na terenie Polski podatnikami, p?atnikami podatk?w oraz
p?atnikami sk?adek ZUS.")
So, when I started a vat-paying business (established an Organisation,
if you prefer it that way), I used the same fiscal code as when I was
a consumer. There is no separate vat code. The EC vat number is the
same number prefixed by a country code.

Thanks. There are 2 numbers:
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.

Regards,

JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
- fiscal_code (NIP) - for Person & Organisation
- social_code (PISEN) - for Person & Organisation
- vat_code (EC VAT Numbver) - for Organisation only

- social_code (PESEL) - for Person
- "the other code" (NIP) - for Person and Organisation
fiscal_code === vat_code
"A unique identifier provided by the tax administration for any
individual or organisation who is subject to any tax or social
security payments to Polish authorities".
(for Polish speakers: "Numer NIP to numer identyfikuj?cy podmioty
b?d?ce na terenie Polski podatnikami, p?atnikami podatk?w oraz
p?atnikami sk?adek ZUS.")
So, when I started a vat-paying business (established an Organisation,
if you prefer it that way), I used the same fiscal code as when I was
a consumer. There is no separate vat code. The EC vat number is the
same number prefixed by a country code.

fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
- the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
"fiscal_code".

By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
it works in other EU countries?

Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Jean-Paul Smets]

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
- the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
"fiscal_code".
By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
it works in other EU countries?

It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
world), there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for the company
- a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland

In most countries, there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for each
office of the company

In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
- a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
fiscal code

In some countries, those which have a statistics institute, there is:
- an activity code to produce nation statistics

In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.

Regards,

JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

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--
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ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
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http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
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ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Let's try to put it all together - first a list of properties, then
questions, then what is missing currently in ERP5, then issues to
discuss:

Properties
------------
The following numbers/codes are essential from legal and fiscal point of view:

personal ID
description: a unique number given to every person
refers to: Person
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: social_code
name in Poland: PESEL

* in fact a person who has multiple citizenship can have the ID in
more then one country, but we probably don't have to bother

registration code
description: provided by the business registry for the company
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: corporate_registration_code
name in Poland: KRS

activity code
description: provided by statistics institute to produce national statistics
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: activity_code
name in Poland: REGON

fiscal code
description: a unique number given to every tax payer; given to every
adult citizen and to every legal entity; used for filing tax forms,
vat settlements, printed on invoices within the country
refers to: Person and Organisation
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: (missing)
name in Poland: NIP

* except corner cases like expatriates, which we probably can skip

european vat code
description: a unique number given to every business entity trading
with other EU countries; printed on invoices issued for foreign
clients
refers to: Person
multiplicity: many - potentially one per EU country *
name in ERP5: vat_code
name in Poland: "Europejski numer VAT" or "NIP europejski"

* normally an organisation registers for EU vat code in its country of
residence; however, there are cases whereby an organisation pays VAT
also in other EU countries to which it exports

Questions:
-----------
- what is geographic_incorporate_code?
- what is social_code of an Organisation?

What is missing
-------------------

- fiscal code for both Person and Organisation
- multiple vat_codes

Discussion
-----------------

1) Some countries have something like "social security number", I
don't know if it is an equivalent of "personal ID" or "fiscal code". I
hope someone from another country joins the discussion...

2) I think social code and fiscal code should be catalogged - this is
because (a) these codes are very important and are often used to find
and identify a person or an organisation, and (b) because they are
assured to be unique country-wide, so a serious application should be
able to check if there are no duplicates.

3) If we follow the principle that a business activity of a Person is
represented by a respective Organisation, what relation should link
the two? I presume there should be a relation, and some properties
(like fiscal code or default address) will be acquired along the
relation.

4) Maybe we could develop something like "country-based property",
where one could input one value per every country defined in the
region tree - that would cover all corner cases of expats with
mutliple ids and fiscal codes, companies with multiple vat codes etc?

Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
- the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
"fiscal_code".
By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
it works in other EU countries?

It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
world), there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for the company
- a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
In most countries, there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for each
office of the company
In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
- a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
fiscal code
- an activity code to produce nation statistics
In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

[Bartek Gorny]

Hello, hello - anybody there? I thought we started working on something...

This list is an attempt to put together a generic list and apply it to
Polish condition - to test if it is ok requires a similar application
for other countries. And a constructive criticism from some of the
core developers...

B.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Let's try to put it all together - first a list of properties, then
questions, then what is missing currently in ERP5, then issues to
Properties
------------
personal ID
description: a unique number given to every person
refers to: Person
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: social_code
name in Poland: PESEL
* in fact a person who has multiple citizenship can have the ID in
more then one country, but we probably don't have to bother
registration code
description: provided by the business registry for the company
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: corporate_registration_code
name in Poland: KRS
activity code
description: provided by statistics institute to produce national statistics
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: activity_code
name in Poland: REGON
fiscal code
description: a unique number given to every tax payer; given to every
adult citizen and to every legal entity; used for filing tax forms,
vat settlements, printed on invoices within the country
refers to: Person and Organisation
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: (missing)
name in Poland: NIP
* except corner cases like expatriates, which we probably can skip
european vat code
description: a unique number given to every business entity trading
with other EU countries; printed on invoices issued for foreign
clients
refers to: Person
multiplicity: many - potentially one per EU country *
name in ERP5: vat_code
name in Poland: "Europejski numer VAT" or "NIP europejski"
* normally an organisation registers for EU vat code in its country of
residence; however, there are cases whereby an organisation pays VAT
also in other EU countries to which it exports
-----------
- what is geographic_incorporate_code?
- what is social_code of an Organisation?
What is missing
-------------------
- fiscal code for both Person and Organisation
- multiple vat_codes
Discussion
-----------------
1) Some countries have something like "social security number", I
don't know if it is an equivalent of "personal ID" or "fiscal code". I
hope someone from another country joins the discussion...
2) I think social code and fiscal code should be catalogged - this is
because (a) these codes are very important and are often used to find
and identify a person or an organisation, and (b) because they are
assured to be unique country-wide, so a serious application should be
able to check if there are no duplicates.
3) If we follow the principle that a business activity of a Person is
represented by a respective Organisation, what relation should link
the two? I presume there should be a relation, and some properties
(like fiscal code or default address) will be acquired along the
relation.
4) Maybe we could develop something like "country-based property",
where one could input one value per every country defined in the
region tree - that would cover all corner cases of expats with
mutliple ids and fiscal codes, companies with multiple vat codes etc?
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
- the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
"fiscal_code".
By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
it works in other EU countries?

It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
world), there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for the company
- a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
In most countries, there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for each
office of the company
In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
- a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
fiscal code
- an activity code to produce nation statistics
In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
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ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
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"Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"

[Jean-Paul Smets]

Hi,

I actually started working on page with a summary of this discussion.

In short:
- for immediate use, only way is to add "fiscal_code"
- to solve all issues, it is necessary to extend code system with
predicates. This can take up to 10 man days and requires a lot of
verification of the impact on all other modules

Regards,

JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello, hello - anybody there? I thought we started working on something...
This list is an attempt to put together a generic list and apply it to
Polish condition - to test if it is ok requires a similar application
for other countries. And a constructive criticism from some of the
core developers...
B.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Let's try to put it all together - first a list of properties, then
questions, then what is missing currently in ERP5, then issues to
Properties
------------
personal ID
description: a unique number given to every person
refers to: Person
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: social_code
name in Poland: PESEL
* in fact a person who has multiple citizenship can have the ID in
more then one country, but we probably don't have to bother
registration code
description: provided by the business registry for the company
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: corporate_registration_code
name in Poland: KRS
activity code
description: provided by statistics institute to produce national statistics
refers to: Organisation
multiplicity: 1
name in ERP5: activity_code
name in Poland: REGON
fiscal code
description: a unique number given to every tax payer; given to every
adult citizen and to every legal entity; used for filing tax forms,
vat settlements, printed on invoices within the country
refers to: Person and Organisation
multiplicity: 1 *
name in ERP5: (missing)
name in Poland: NIP
* except corner cases like expatriates, which we probably can skip
european vat code
description: a unique number given to every business entity trading
with other EU countries; printed on invoices issued for foreign
clients
refers to: Person
multiplicity: many - potentially one per EU country *
name in ERP5: vat_code
name in Poland: "Europejski numer VAT" or "NIP europejski"
* normally an organisation registers for EU vat code in its country of
residence; however, there are cases whereby an organisation pays VAT
also in other EU countries to which it exports
-----------
- what is geographic_incorporate_code?
- what is social_code of an Organisation?
What is missing
-------------------
- fiscal code for both Person and Organisation
- multiple vat_codes
Discussion
-----------------
1) Some countries have something like "social security number", I
don't know if it is an equivalent of "personal ID" or "fiscal code". I
hope someone from another country joins the discussion...
2) I think social code and fiscal code should be catalogged - this is
because (a) these codes are very important and are often used to find
and identify a person or an organisation, and (b) because they are
assured to be unique country-wide, so a serious application should be
able to check if there are no duplicates.
3) If we follow the principle that a business activity of a Person is
represented by a respective Organisation, what relation should link
the two? I presume there should be a relation, and some properties
(like fiscal code or default address) will be acquired along the
relation.
4) Maybe we could develop something like "country-based property",
where one could input one value per every country defined in the
region tree - that would cover all corner cases of expats with
mutliple ids and fiscal codes, companies with multiple vat codes etc?
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
fiscal_code which is the NIP in Poland and applied to everyone
vat_code which is (in Poland) equal to a prefix + NIP (but not in
other countries) which is ony for Organisation

That's quite correct, but - please keep in mind that while a business
has to have a NIP to operate, it doesn't necessarily need EU Vat code
- the EU code is required only if you trade with other EU countries.
Inside the country, only the NIP is used. So if you define it like
that, you will have many Organisations which would issue vat invoices
and pay vat without having the "vat_code", only with the
"fiscal_code".
By the way, how is the EU Vat constructed for French entities? And how
it works in other EU countries?

It works differently in every country. In general (anywhere in the
world), there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for the company
- a fiscal code, or revenue tax code, which is like NIP in Poland
In most countries, there is
- registration code provided by the business registry for each
office of the company
In some countries, those which have VAT, there is
- a vat_code which can be somehow be the same or different from the
fiscal code
- an activity code to produce nation statistics
In France, the vat_code is similar to the registration code, not to the
fiscal code. I am sure in other countries, it could be fully unrelated.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets

Post by Bartek Gorny
Also, consider NGOs. An NGO is not a person - it is a legal entity,
like a corporation. It is not a vat payer. It is exempt from income
tax. But it has a tax identification (a NIP), exactly like a
corporation.

NGOs pay VAT in certain countries. They also pay income taxes too.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Bartek Gorny

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
Hi,
The analysis related to vat_code is incorrect. Let me explain why, since
we had the same situation when we implemented the registry of commerce
in a certain country and the only VAT registration system in that same
country.
A Person represents a physical person. A Person does not have, as such,
a vat code. A Person of course has other codes in relation with
individual taxes or social insurances. This number usually identifies
that person in a unique manner.
In some countries, people can have a private business. They often must
be registered to a kind of business registry before they can do business.
a- the physical person entity -> Person in ERP5
b- the moral person entity which represents the business -> Organisation
in ERP5
So, if someone wants to do business as himself in ERP5, he should create
- one Person which represents himself as physical entity
- one Person which represents his/her business

Just to clarify things - I think you meant "one Person which
represents his/her business" here, right?

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The idea behind that is that a business can start as an individual
business (ie. handled by a single Person) and later evolve into a
corporation, yet retain the same name, clients, etc. A business is
therefore always a moral person, not an individual person. So, the
conclusion is simple: use Organisation if you want to define businessed
operated by individuals and Person to represent the owner of that
individual business.

- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case - I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money - there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation
- the NIP (Tax Identification Code, vat code, whatever you call it) is
common for all legal entities (companies and the likes) and people
countrywide - there may not be two legal entities or two people with
the same NIP, but also there may not be a legal entity and a person
with the same NIP; whereas, in this approach, you would by definition
have a Person and an Organisation sharing the same number
As far as the evolution is concerned - if a business activity evolves
from an individual business into a corporate entity, then it can
retain a name, but it's NIP (tax id) will change. The corporate entity
does not automatically takes over everything - it may take over
contracts, clients, credits, investments, trade debtors etc, but
doesn't have to, so it is not a 100% continuation. It all depends on
the way it is established. And it has a different legal form, so I'd
be rather cautious in deciding whether it is the same Organisation or
a new one.
Anyway, a Person does have a tax id, whether we call it vat_code or
something else, and it is legally required to file any tax or social
security form, so whatever approach we choose one property of a Person
is missing.
Bartek

Post by Jean-Paul Smets
The only reason which could justify adding vat_code to a Person would be
- a private individual (Person) acts as a consumer (ie. not as an
individual business)
- purchases a product from a given supplier (Organisation)
- and is requested a vat_code from that that supplier
If you prefer: vat_code is delivered to private individuals which are
not doing any business and are not registered as moral person in any
form. I am not aware of any such case anywhere.
About vat_code, codes, Person and Organisation. I only see the current
1- codes are multivalued in reality (they are single valued now). It is
necessary to extend codes in a way similar to prices for resources or
addresses for Person/Organisation ie. with subobjects and a default
value. A given person can have multiple codes (ex. social, tax) which
are unique for a given country.
2- codes currently consist of corporate_registration_code, social_code,
vat_code, geographic_incorporate_code, activity_code. All of them are
related to concepts which are universal worldwide. Some codes are
missing though (ex. tax_code). I am interested in making a list of codes
which is both universal and covers all cases.
Regards,
JPS.

Post by Vera Kurpas

Post by Bartek Gorny
Hello,
I just noticed that the Organisation property sheet provides a
vat_code property, but the Person property sheet does not, so a person
has no vat_code. The Person has only a "social_code".
I don't know about France, but in Poland every organisation and every
person has a Tax Identification Number (NIP), which in case of a
person is used e.g. for filing annual tax forms, and of an
organisation for vat settlements, invoicing and everything else. Also,
if someone starts doing business and pays VAT, he uses his personal
NIP for vat settlements. In many accounting, financial, trade and
other applications NIP is used to property identify a
person/organisation and to make sure it is unique system-wide.
As far as the "social code" is concerned - I don't know what it is in
France, but in Poland I'd interpret is as the PESEL number, which is a
unique number assigned to every citizen - and this would be
consistent, because organisations do not have PESELs.

The same situation is in Russia except the fact that person can have VAT
number even he does not carry on business for better salary tax
registration. VAT is mandatory required for someone who starts doing
business. VAT for Person differ from Company VAT by quantity of numbers.
The presence of the social code is obligatory for every citizen.

Post by Bartek Gorny
So, the question is: is it similar in other countries? If so, would it
be a good idea to give a vat_code to a Person type and catalog it?

I think vat_code should be in Person form and be catalogued for search
and sorting purposes.

Post by Bartek Gorny
If
not, then maybe a localisation template should provide it?
Bartek

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--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
Jean-Paul Smets-Solanes, Nexedi CEO - Tel. [phone]
ERP5 Enterprise: Free / Open Source ERP for Critical Applications
http://www.erp5.com
ERP5 Express: Hosted Open Source ERP for small companies
http://www.myerp5.com
Nexedi: Consulting and Development of Free / Open Source Software
http://www.nexedi.com
_______________________________________________
Erp5-dev mailing list
Erp5-dev at erp5.org
http://mail.nexedi.com/mailman/listinfo/erp5-dev

--
"Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent
but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry."
Eric S.Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron"

[Jacek Medrzycki]

Post by Bartek Gorny
- in reality, there is no another legal entity in such a case -

Yes, it is.

Post by Bartek Gorny
I am
an example of it, because I do this kind of business activity, and
when I as a business entity purchase something from a supplier, then I
owe him my personal money

It has nothing to do with money, I think.

Post by Bartek Gorny
- there is no third party involved, so the
business model in ERP5 would be different from the real life situation

There is a kind of third party.
Consider, that one can't just say one day: "I'm going to carry on
business so I'm going to issue VAT invoices". To do so, you had to
register in three (in case of Poland) places: municipal authorities,
Statistical Office (GUS) and Tax Office. Yes, you retained you personal
vat code, but you had to invite a name for your business activity - so
there is no doubt for me, that some new entity came to life the moment
when you registered your acivity - and this entity should be represented
by something more than a Person you are. The Organisation is an obvious
choice.

Than look at the typical finance departament. Are they interested, if
their contractor is a single person carrying business, or huge company
employing thousands of people? No. Both are equals from the financial
point of view - they are just contractors and should be treated the same
manner.
If people carrying own business were represented by Person objects, and
"regular" companies by Organisation objects, then the contractor catalog
would be splitted between two modules, which complicates logic.

J.